tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6898093196374109483.post4236392554363851262..comments2012-10-02T14:56:10.134-07:00Comments on Back to the Mountains: Cyndere's Midnight 5: A Response to some responses, part twoStevehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01793038831644847951noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6898093196374109483.post-28570942822567289662009-02-24T12:41:00.000-08:002009-02-24T12:41:00.000-08:00I assumed you were aware of the earlier posts; I s...I assumed you were aware of the earlier posts; I should've brought them up earlier in the discussion.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01793038831644847951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6898093196374109483.post-62943776371533384572009-02-24T12:17:00.000-08:002009-02-24T12:17:00.000-08:00Steve,Thanks for pointing me to your earlier post ...Steve,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for pointing me to your earlier post ... that definitely helps me understand your reservations coming into this novel.<BR/><BR/>I explored your blog a bit and found a lot of other good stuff, and I'm putting you in my bookmarks of blogs to read.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the discussion!<BR/><BR/>-RobertRobert Treskillardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17767228138541201198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6898093196374109483.post-52894803417026122292009-02-22T11:19:00.000-08:002009-02-22T11:19:00.000-08:00I was aware who and what Elbereth was, which is wh...I was aware who and what Elbereth was, which is why I said that it reflected Tolkien's Catholicism. However, the question of whether it is proper to pray to angels isn't particularly relevant. The question is whether angels or anything short of God may be described in unequivocally divine terms and act as an agent of salvation and object of worship.<BR/><BR/>I'd suggest you read <A HREF="http://ansric.blogspot.com/2008/02/auralias-colors-reconsidered.html" REL="nofollow">an earlier post on the subect.</A> That should explain my reservations. I'll also add that Overstreet has in fact reduced the divine language about the Keeper in the current book.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01793038831644847951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6898093196374109483.post-44714851881729491462009-02-22T05:52:00.000-08:002009-02-22T05:52:00.000-08:00Steve,The Keeper and the Tolkien issue have just m...Steve,<BR/><BR/>The Keeper and the Tolkien issue have just merged, I think. <BR/><BR/>My understanding of "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" was that this was not a reference to God, but to a lesser being. I thought that it was a reference to Eärendil, who took one of the silmarils up into the sky, but I was wrong.<BR/><BR/>"Elbereth Gilthoniel" is Varda, queen of the Valar, which is Tolkien's equivalent to an arch-angel.<BR/><BR/>So the hymns and prayers to Elbereth (as you mention) are not directly to God, but to an angel. Maybe that's his Catholicism coming out. Hmmm...<BR/><BR/>Anyway, if the Keeper is some sort of angel, or servant of God, then the two are actually equivalent, so I thought that was interesting.<BR/><BR/>(My theory of the Keeper could be completely off base, however!)<BR/><BR/>Here is the wikipedia article on Elbereth Gilthoniel:<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilthoniel<BR/><BR/>You are right, though, that no one seems to know God in the Expanse, at least not as revealed yet. So I understand your "putting a lamp under a bed" issue, and I agree that there is a lot that has to be resolved.<BR/><BR/>I still have hope that it will. <BR/><BR/>I read Jeffrey Overstreet somewhere talking about Scharr Ben Frey, and saying loosely that "he isn't the one with all the answers, rather he is the one with all the questions, and he is seeking the truth about the Expanse and what is happening."<BR/><BR/>My guess is that what he finds will answer a lot of these questions. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the series.<BR/><BR/>Question: What do you mean by "light"? Do you mean "the gospel", in the sense that a Christian writer has to give the gospel (in some way) in their fiction?<BR/><BR/>Obviously that would be great, but for me I don't know if that would be required, or possible, in every book. <BR/><BR/>If a Christian writer includes clear truths and a clear morality based on Christian principles, then he is sharing "light" as well. We all need this kind of light, too.<BR/><BR/>If by "light" you mean "hiding his Christianity", then you may be right in the sense that the book is not overt in its Christianity.<BR/><BR/>But is Jeffrey trying to hide his Christianity? I don't think so. <BR/><BR/>As you say, his non-fiction writings are clearly Christian, and his website shows that. Also, his bio on the back of the book says he writes for Christianity Today. Any thinking reader would assume he is a Christian.<BR/><BR/>Is that enough, though? There's the question...<BR/><BR/>Thanks for discussing this. Sorry for my long comments!<BR/><BR/>-RobertRobert Treskillardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17767228138541201198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6898093196374109483.post-74543140049076386892009-02-21T18:58:00.000-08:002009-02-21T18:58:00.000-08:00I'm sorry about the delay in publishing your comme...I'm sorry about the delay in publishing your comment; Fridays and weekends are usually hectic for me. I'll get to the problem of the Keeper tomorrow, I hope.<BR/><BR/>My remark about "proper religion" alludes to the fact that no one seems to know God. They may know the Keeper, but if it isn't God, that doesn't count. If God exists in the Expanse, why doesn't someone know him?<BR/><BR/>In Middle Earth, by contrast, there is a true religion, and the hymns and prayers to Elbereth are mentioned in LotR. (Does "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" ring a bell?) There is a knowable God in Middle Earth, even if the details don't emerge until later.<BR/><BR/>One of the things that troubles me about this whole discussion is that NO ONE has ever answered my primary contention, which is that if Christ is the center of a writer's life, he will also be central to the writer's output. It's like saying that in fact putting a lamp under a bed or a basket gives enough light to begin with, and isn't that good enough?Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01793038831644847951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6898093196374109483.post-81998692543988115662009-02-20T14:03:00.000-08:002009-02-20T14:03:00.000-08:00Steve,Thanks for taking a lot of time to think thr...Steve,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for taking a lot of time to think through my comment. I appreciate it, and I also appreciate the fact that you are working through the implications from what you see in the text of Jeffrey Overstreets books.<BR/><BR/>Here's my responses: <BR/><BR/>A) I feel like you are setting up a false dualism: That the Keeper *must* be God or the Devil. <BR/><BR/>What about the Keeper being a servant of God? A type of Angel/Seraphim?<BR/><BR/>You say 'here is no "proper religion" in terms of the Expanse', but I don't think that's true. Maybe the key word here is "religion". <BR/><BR/>In fantasy stories by Christians I don't look for an organized religion that someone has to be part of, but rather I look for a clear-cut "good side" and a "bad side". A Christian author who does this will also, as an outflow of their life seeking God, fill in the details with themes of truth.<BR/><BR/>And our reading and recommendation standards are probably different here, and that is what is at the root of our disagreement. <BR/><BR/>In Overstreet's books, there is definitely a "correct side" and a "wrong side". Cyndere is learning to choose the good side, and will have to fight great and insidious evil in the coming two books. I see no moral ambiguity here, no slippery slope---only a knife edge of good vs. bad.<BR/><BR/>You say you can confidently jump to judgment, and maybe you can by your standards. For me, I will wait and see.<BR/><BR/>B) When you speak of Tolkien, I think you are interpreting the LOTR with reference to the Silmarillion and other works. <BR/><BR/>Without the Silmarillion, I don't think there is any direct mention of Illuvater in the LOTR. Readers had to wait a long time for that information, and I'm glad it came out, because it *did* influence me toward believing in God. <BR/><BR/>I read the LOTR and later the Silmarillion as a non-Christian, and I remember being quite surprised about Illuvater. There was an all-powerful God, much like the God of the Bible behind the LOTR? Wow. Within six months I accepted Christ into my life. I can't see a "direct line of connection" there, but I know God was working in my life through many small things, and I don't discount it.<BR/><BR/>Beyond that, I agree with you that Lewis is more obvious in his writings. But I don't sit in judgment over Tolkien because of that. He is someone else's servant.<BR/><BR/>C) Yes, I must admit that I took out the plurals. But I did so because I felt like you were hiding behind them. <BR/><BR/>Step 1) First associate someone with a group.<BR/>Step 2) Attack the group.<BR/>Step 3) Say you weren't attacking the person.<BR/><BR/>This may not have been your intent, but since the primary individual you were writing about was Jeffrey Overstreet, it was easy to feel that way.<BR/><BR/>If I accused you falsely, I'm sorry. I did try to allow you the benefit of the doubt while still calling you to clarify. I think I was too harsh though, myself, and I apologize for that.<BR/><BR/>D) Thanks for the more gentle words of encouragement for Jeffrey at the end of your post.<BR/><BR/>E) Also, know that I think you are calling writers to a good standard. I think books written to the standard you set forth are excellent (assuming the writing is on par), and I personally am trying with all my strength to live up to that standard in my own writing.<BR/><BR/>The difference is that I allow for more freedom, within limits of course, for Christian authors. <BR/><BR/>Thanks Steve. If you have anything more to say, I'd like to read it and continue to be sharpened.<BR/><BR/>-RobertRobert Treskillardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17767228138541201198noreply@blogger.com